MSN Clone Discussion

[color=#000099]at the end of the day people will go where they want to go...i prefer a web based chat cos i cant script and theres no shame in that fact either ..i have always prefered to talk via web..and yes if scripts are made for buzzen i will get one purely for room protection and game playing nothing else...but just cos i have a room on one server dont stop me from popping to other servers to see friends[/color]

there will always be scripts for any irx* server.. that you can bet on.

my only concern about it is when msn shuts down what would that mean for buzzen since they use a clone of the msn chats ocx? If I can get this question answered, and if buzzen will keep going then I would start making some scripts, and addons for buzzen as well.

from what I have read here msnchat team, Buzzen chat has been reported numerous times already at Microsoft Legal Contacts. I don't see how msn shutting down makes a difference

Lets look at what is going on here, it seems everyone but microsoft are saying buzzen should not use the chat ocx.

At the end of the day microsoft will decide what is what, if they were realy bothered i would think that they would have taken action long ago!

Microsoft are well aware of the ocx use and seem only concerned about any alterations or copyright removal from thier software, which is not happening to my knowledge.

I am sure if they leave the ocx on thier server they will add a disclaimer about it`s use.

Many users have the ocx installed on thier computers and microsoft would have to send down an update to disable remove it, by doing so they also have to allow users to see detail of any update and the option to refuse the sed update/ updates..

Due to the amount of users, they certainly would not or could not take legal enforcement to force removal or force an update on a users .

So at the end of the day, it is between microsoft and the company/persons involved, we can not say hey you are using that illegally, it is up to microsoft!

Lets look at what is going on here, it seems everyone but microsoft are saying buzzen should not use the chat ocx.

At the end of the day microsoft will decide what is what, if they were realy bothered i would think that they would have taken action long ago!

Microsoft are well aware of the ocx use and seem only concerned about any alterations or copyright removal from thier software, which is not happening to my knowledge.

I am sure if they leave the ocx on thier server they will add a disclaimer about it`s use.

Many users have the ocx installed on thier computers and microsoft would have to send down an update to disable remove it, by doing so they also have to allow users to see detail of any update and the option to refuse the sed update/ updates..

Due to the amount of users, they certainly would not or could not take legal enforcement to force removal or force an update on a users .

 

So at the end of the day, it is between microsoft and the company/persons involved, we can not say hey you are using that illegally, it is up to microsoft!

Very well said Yahoo.

i"m sorry YAHOO on your point i have to disagree. First, simply reading the terms of use shows us what's legal and what isn't. If you break a law in the U.S. just because the cops haven't caught you yet doesn't mean what you did was legal. That's not a valid point. Second Microsoft does not have to do anything to private users that have the ocx installed on their computer. They are not violating any copyright issue by just having the ocx installed. As for the possibility of microsoft doing anything to buzzen. That is possible.. It's probably unlikely but it is possible. They have gone after sites that have domain names that are similar to MSN which i think is less of an issue than using the ocx. I would assume MSN is going to remove the download link for the ocx once the site closes. When they do this how are new users to buzzen going to get the ocx? Are they planning on releasing the ocx themselves? I think the questions we are throwing out there are very legitimate. People just want assurance that if they move to buzzen that they are going to have a reliable place to chat. I just don't see how you can tell your users that you aren't going anywhere when you use an ocx that you don't own. I myself hope Microsoft leaves buzzen alone and it is able to continue to grow but I think as long as buzzen uses that ocx they will always have to look over their shoulder and hope microsoft "chooses" not to go after buzzen. If they don't it isn't because they don't have the legal recourse to do so. It's because they just don't care. But hey MSN has shown us how much they don't care over and over. I just think ppl that talk about the use of the ocx not being the best thing have a perfectly understandable point. Doesn't mean they think buzzen is bad. Just questioning what will happen to it's users if microsoft does decide to go after them about their ocx.. do they have a backup plan? do their users just get left out in the cold? I don't see anything wrong with their users or potential users asking those questions.

P.S. I think it would help answer alot of these questions if buzzen would simply acknowledge the possibility that they may no longer be able to support chat using the MSN ocx. Something very similar to :

Dear valued Buzzen users. With the close of MSN chat pending we understand your concerns about the future of buzzen chat. Let us assure you that we plan to be around for a very long time. If we have to discontinue use of the MSN ocx we do have a plan in place to ensure our chatters will continue to have a home with Buzzen. There are alot of unknowns with the closing of MSN chat and how it will affect us but we promise to do our best to ensure you always have a place to chat.

very short and to the point.. users just want some assurances. I know you can't give absolute assurance but just letting them know you are prepared to keep your users chatting would go a long way. Just saying hey msn probably won't bother us about using the ocx and we will be here forever using it just don't seem very re-assuring to me i guess.

Buzzen isn't bad at all. When I was there the day I saw msn chat was going to close in October I thought it was a very good place to go, and chat. However, like err0r said, I am concerned about what will happen to buzzen after msn chat closes, because of the ocx issue. I don't have anything against buzzen at all, and I would like to make scripts/addons for them, but I don't want to make them if buzzen won't be around much longer. That would be work down the drain. I now regret making scripts and addons for msn chat that I have made recently, because that was work for nothing.

i"m sorry YAHOO on your point i have to disagree. First, simply reading the terms of use shows us what's legal and what isn't. If you break a law in the U.S. just because the cops haven't caught you yet doesn't mean what you did was legal. That's not a valid point. Second Microsoft does not have to do anything to private users that have the ocx installed on their computer. They are not violating any copyright issue by just having the ocx installed. As for the possibility of microsoft doing anything to buzzen. That is possible.. It's probably unlikely but it is possible. They have gone after sites that have domain names that are similar to MSN which i think is less of an issue than using the ocx. I would assume MSN is going to remove the download link for the ocx once the site closes. When they do this how are new users to buzzen going to get the ocx? Are they planning on releasing the ocx themselves? I think the questions we are throwing out there are very legitimate. People just want assurance that if they move to buzzen that they are going to have a reliable place to chat. I just don't see how you can tell your users that you aren't going anywhere when you use an ocx that you don't own. I myself hope Microsoft leaves buzzen alone and it is able to continue to grow but I think as long as buzzen uses that ocx they will always have to look over their shoulder and hope microsoft "chooses" not to go after buzzen. If they don't it isn't because they don't have the legal recourse to do so. It's because they just don't care. But hey MSN has shown us how much they don't care over and over. I just think ppl that talk about the use of the ocx not being the best thing have a perfectly understandable point. Doesn't mean they think buzzen is bad. Just questioning what will happen to it's users if microsoft does decide to go after them about their ocx.. do they have a backup plan? do their users just get left out in the cold? I don't see anything wrong with their users or potential users asking those questions.

 

P.S. I think it would help answer alot of these questions if buzzen would simply acknowledge the possibility that they may no longer be able to support chat using the MSN ocx. Something very similar to :

 

Dear valued Buzzen users. With the close of MSN chat pending we understand your concerns about the future of buzzen chat. Let us assure you that we plan to be around for a very long time. If we have to discontinue use of the MSN ocx we do have a plan in place to ensure our chatters will continue to have a home with Buzzen. There are alot of unknowns with the closing of MSN chat and how it will affect us but we promise to do our best to ensure you always have a place to chat.

 

very short and to the point.. users just want some assurances. I know you can't give absolute assurance but just letting them know you are prepared to keep your users chatting would go a long way. Just saying hey msn probably won't bother us about using the ocx and we will be here forever using it just don't seem very re-assuring to me i guess.

Nice rationale, Error!

In my opinion, Buzzen is a good place to be. It sure brings back the fond familiarity and nice feelings when chatting in their rooms, especially for MSN groupies. The future of Buzzen adapting MSN's ocx is uncertain and nobody can surmise the outcome when Microsoft shuts their chat service once and for all. I can only wish Buzzen a steady growth for years to come.

yeah i think the biggest problem i had with MSN was their lack of care for their users. They kept us all as uninformed of their actions as possible. I mean it's ridiculous to just post a little side note on your site telling you the whole thing is coming to an end. I know when we paid to chat we didn't actually pay to chat. We paid for other things such as hotmail storage.. Basically i feel like i got suckered into buying extra hotmail space i didn't need. But that was on me i guess. Stupid me for trying to support something i enjoyed doing only to have them rip it out from under me with no care as to my opinion as a customer

They have gone after sites that have domain names that are similar to MSN which i think is less of an issue than using the ocx.

Actually, no. Similar domain names can be used for phishing ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phishing ), which is not really an issue with using the ocx. But there is a possibility that MSN can take action against the use of their ocx.

chuck i didn't say similar domain names had anything to do with the ocx lol.. it meant that msn does have a history of going after people for things they consider copyright infringement.. I've seen msn take down sites that weren't trying to claim they were any part of MSN. Their claim was MSN name was copyrighted so sites that had names like MSNscripts.com would be asked and in some cases forced to change their domain name. I hope very much that msn leaves all the clones alone. Someone may as well use the ocx if they aren't.

chuck i didn't say similar domain names had anything to do with the ocx lol.. it meant that msn does have a history of going after people for things they consider as either copyright infringement.. I've seen msn take down sites that weren't trying to claim they were any part of MSN. Their claim was MSN name was copyrighted so sites that had names like MSNscripts.com would be asked and in some cases forced to change their domain name. I hope very much that msn leaves all the clones alone. Someone may as well use the ocx if they aren't.

When prowler bought xmsn.ca we did it cuz we were gonna ride on that name for awhile until people got used to the name, we did get papers from some lawyers to cease and desist cuz we had the msn butterfly, but thats about it. There was no financial loss as we werent that big at the time.

chuck i didn't say similar domain names had anything to do with the ocx lol.. it meant that msn does have a history of going after people for things they consider as either copyright infringement.. I've seen msn take down sites that weren't trying to claim they were any part of MSN. Their claim was MSN name was copyrighted so sites that had names like MSNscripts.com would be asked and in some cases forced to change their domain name. I hope very much that msn leaves all the clones alone. Someone may as well use the ocx if they aren't.

I mean phishing is a big issue, probably that's the reason msn went after similar domain names. Problem with "MSNscripts.com" is similar that it can confuse people, for example, like if someone used "tg007designs.net" even if the site claims there is no affiliation with "tg007.net", yet still the domain name can confuse people into believing that it is related to tg007.net. On the other hand, ocx issue is not that serious, otherwise, they would have taken out all the chat sites using msn ocx with the sites with domain names similar to msn.

But that doesn't mean there is no possibility for msn to go after sites that are using msn ocx.

just want assurance that if they move to buzzen that they are going to have a reliable place to chat. I just don't see how you can tell your users that you aren't going anywhere when you use an ocx that you don't own.

I don't know about internal affairs of buzzen, but it is possible that they have an alternative web chat in case msn force them to remove msn's ocx.

sure anything is possible.. but wouldn't it be a good show of faith to talk to their users and tell them that if the ocx is no longer an option that they have an alternative? i mean is it asking to much for ppl that are willing to move all their users to their system to have someone from buzzen ensure them that they do indeed have a plan? I know the ocx issue doesn't seem to be a big deal to you because you aren't the company that spent the money making the ocx what it is today. You look at msn/microsoft and think they make so much money they won't miss it. I think that is a bad way of thinking personally.

The parallel i was drawing between msn going after similar domain names and possibly going after sites using their ocx has nothing to do with each other.. You are missing my point. The parallel is copyright.. Not whether it's a domain name or the ocx.

To be honest, I'm at a loss as to how anyone could reasonably assume Buzzen is doing anything Illegal.

Some nonetheless feel strongly we are. I feel those that believe that, are uneducated in what it is we actually do.

I can see that some may worry how Buzzen will fare when MSN closes down. That is a reasonable concern and one that has been addressed in a manner similiar to what err0r had suggested, almost word for word infact.

atm nothing you are doing I would perceive as illegal. what's going to become an issue i fear is if msn removes the download from their servers. Who is going to offer the ocx for download? That is the problem i think most users are talking about.

I think why most ppl are focusing on Buzzen on this issue is that Buzzen is by far the best msn chat clone out. That is a blessing and a curse. As if MSN does focus in on any site it will be Buzzen I'm sure. Like i said i personally hope MSN stays out of it. I still to this day like msn's chat setup. I just do not like MSN in regards to it's treatment of it's users. It would be a very big shame to see that ocx setup disappear. This is all just a guessing game. But you know the only reason people have gone to Buzzen is because of how MSN has done it's users. I know there isn't a thing you can do about what MSN will or won't do. I just hope you are forward and honest with your users on everything that is happening. I would hate to see a message on buzzen down the line stating something like "we are no longer able to use the msn chat control and we have no alternative chat control" Then you are just going to see all your users go to another chat clone, until msn goes after them. I personally hope to see buzzen do well not because i know anyone from buzzen which i don't. But because I would like the chat users to have a good place to chat.

sure anything is possible.. but wouldn't it be a good show of faith to talk to their users and tell them that if the ocx is no longer an option that they have an alternative? i mean is it asking to much for ppl that are willing to move all their users to their system to have someone from buzzen ensure them that they do indeed have a plan? I know the ocx issue doesn't seem to be a big deal to you because you aren't the company that spent the money making the ocx what it is today. You look at msn/microsoft and think they make so much money they won't miss it. I think that is a bad way of thinking personally.

 

The parallel i was drawing between msn going after similar domain names and possibly going after sites using their ocx has nothing to do with each other.. You are missing my point. The parallel is copyright.. Not whether it's a domain name or the ocx.

The problem is parallel doesn't count value and nature of the two to msn.

First, name 'msn' is not covered by copyright law, but it comes under trade mark law.

Second, from marketing and finance pov, name 'msn' is more valuable to the company than a small activex control. Maybe all the legal fee can cost them more, you know lawyers charge more than programmers.

In sum, chances of msn going after sites that use msn's chat control compared to sites that use 'msn' in their domain name is very low.

Edit:

If you mean msn can close buzzen, then yes that is a possibility. But parallel is confusing, because from corporate pov there is a huge difference in value for MSN between the two, not mention their is a risk of phishing with similar domain names. Whatever the site with similar domain says, msn or any other big company won't risk phishing.

the cost doesn't matter chuck.. just because one thing costs less than the other doesn't make it ok. I've already said the risk is low but it doesn't make it right. You can't justify it by saying MSN shouldn't care as much about it. You can't pick and choose what's right and wrong just because it might be a lesser wrong. It's like comparing stealing a car to stealing a candy bar in the scheme of things i guess but it's still the same thing. MSN wouldn't have to put out any real money to stop the ocx from being used on sites. A simple letter from one of their huge staff of lawyers who are on retainer all the time would end it. This whole thread isn't about whether buzzen should or shouldn't use the ocx ( at least on my part ). My view is they should be prepared if MSN does attempt to stop them. I don't care if buzzen stays around or folds personally. It's just like techgear. If we close there will always be someone to take the place. My only concern is for the chat users. I'm sure we can all agree that MSN chat users have been treated poorly by MSN. My hope is that Buzzen will treat it's users much better. I think by informing your users about the possibility is the right thing to do. I've looked over buzzen site and still don't see where that is stated although it's been said that it has. I'm not saying it's not there, i'm saying i haven't seen it meaning that most of their users probably haven't either. People like me who script don't really need a chat with an ocx. But there are tons of ppl moving to buzzen that do. I'm not claiming anything they are doing is wrong in my view. I"m just saying treat your users better than msn. Be the chat that msn should have been.

the cost doesn't matter chuck.. just because one thing costs less than the other doesn't make it ok. I've already said the risk is low but it doesn't make it right. You can't justify it by saying MSN shouldn't care as much about it. You can't pick and choose what's right and wrong just because it might be a lesser wrong.

I'm not justifying or making it right to breach MSN's ToS. All I'm saying is that risk is low.