Ethics.. A tough question

I have a bit of a personal dilemma in my life, one that I continue to try to work through. err0r allueded to it in another discussion. I'll try to reframe it here in similar type concrete example. I hope to hear back what people think, and why.

Here is the example:

Okay lets pretend ozzy is a real smuck..I know thats a stretch. lol

Now if ozzy were to bring a new person into techgear as manager, with the blessings of err0r.... But then err0r left on a 2 month vacation, and during that time the new person decided to create a new techgear site..

Meanwhile..err0r returns from his vacation to find that he is no longer a manager here at techgear, but that ozzy and the new person made him an assistant manager instead..

Then suddenly, ozzy announces to err0r that he is going to shut this site down, and send all the members to the new techgear site...

Would it be wrong for err0r take this site back? of course not.

---But err0r can't take it back, cause its gone, they closed it.

Lets say 3 years pass and err0r realizes he knows ozzy's password, would it be wrong for err0r to take their site, with all of his original members?

lol that is more difficult to answer, and I will say yes It's right somedays, and no It's wrong somedays.

I really just don't know. :S But I would like to hear your thoughts.

Thats a farout situation...

Has Deanne been watching the twilight zone too much??

Well, and I know some people won't like this, but I am going to refer to a verse in the bible that has somewhat a simular situation...

Matthew 5:40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.

This is hard for people to do nowadays, and I can certainly see their situation to want to take back what was rightfully theirs in the first place. However, as my parents told me before, two wrongs don't make a right. It was wrong for the person that took the site to take it. It would be just as much wrong to lose the confidence of that person that gave the password in order to take the site back.

Thats happening right now. Why do you think me and Josh are the support staff?

yea these guys are taking my job! JOKES!. STOP POSTING INTERESTING POSTS! SO distracting i tell you... Can anyone help me with highschool physics, i reckon i'm gonna bomb out on this exam.

There are several things wrong with that example, but for the sake of this post i'll will go with it.

First if that was done to me i would take my skills and rebuild another site. And i would make it bigger and better than before. I would regain users through hardwork and doing what i felt was the right thing to do. ( just as i did with tg )

If for whatever reason i could reclaim the site after 3 years I wouldn't.. It would have been 3 years of work i didn't do, 3 years of users I didn't attract through my way of doing things. You can't get mad at others when they try to make a wrong into a right when you yourself do it.

When something like that happens you learn from it and move on. You don't bring yourself down to their level because of pride or justice. It's not your place. You learn more from life's bad things than you do from the good things. But that's a part of my whole "why does GOD let bad things happen and how it relates to the purpose of life itself" but that's another story for another day.

Bottom line

Wrong = 0

Right = 1

Wrong + Wrong = 0

Wrong + Right = 1

Right + Right = 2

Do un 2 others as you would like done un 2 you

err0r will liek just take teh hax and liek take it back .......... anyhow the only josh and fusion dont steal this site is coz im the prison guard standing over them ruling with an iron fist

Valid points, and I don't disagree with you all.

Life is really about choices. One choice leads to the next, and sometimes there just aren't any really good choices available, so we have to make due choosing the lesser of two evils. Emotions also add weight to one side or the other, as well as our sense of justice or injustice. Its not always a cut and dry process.

For me, having lived through the prototype for this example, my choices ran along this line..

Being err0r in this example, I valued ozzy and felt ozzy would eventually do the right thing, and turn away from his decision to cut me out of a site I loved and worked very hard to help build.

I realized that my current life situation did not allow me to dedicate the time needed to build up a whole new site. I had the time when I helped build the first site, but I no longer had the time necessary to do it again. I also realized that most of the site users now had the site added to their favorites, and visited out of habit, having little awareness of who ran things, so long as their 'favorites' button brought them to a familar place, with some familar faces.

I also realized that it really didn't matter who was running the site, holding a position of power didn't matter so much as being around the people I cared about, and being apart of a site I loved.

I decided that based on all of this, the best course of action would be to do what a true friend would do--stand by ozzy until he came to his senses! My choice seemed like the right one at the time, because ozzy quickly took a step in the right direction when he made me assistant manager of the new site. I figured eventually ozzy would realize my heart for the people and the site we had worked so hard to build, and he would include me fully again.

But slowly the new owner drove a deeper and deeper wedge between ozzy and I. And then the new owner began to treat the people and the site more and more terribly, all the while pressuring and twisting things to get ozzy to take his side. Many tried to speak out about what was happening, and found themselves banned. Others fearing the same treatment clamed up and refused to say much. Others simply left, but clicked the link on their favorites list every now and then to see if things had gotten better.

The new owner built up quite an abusive following, as he swaggered around the site attacking, humiliating, and eventually banning anyone who dared to disagree with him. Ozzy didn't participate in this, but none the less he stood by and let it happen.

After a couple years of dedicating myself to this new site, and having no apparent effect on swaying ozzy to the side of good anymore, I decided to speak out frankly, in hopes of ozzy realizing his error. Instead ozzy let the new manager take me off the assistant manager list and restrict my ability to send any messages on the forum. Running out of options, and no real hope left of swaying ozzy to realize his err0r I decided to distance myself from what was going on.

But e-mails came in regularily with news of one long time friend and member after another who was being ridiculed, mocked, and banned at the new site. Eventually after much unrest and heartache over all that happened, I decided to stop in again, and see if things were really so bad.

After making this list of choices, I stood mutely by, being unable to even add a message to the forum because the new manager rejected all of my messages before they got to the forum. I silently watched a much loved site and many cared about members being ripped apart.

With no time to start over in rebuilding, and no apparent way to right the wrong done, I consider the foundations of our legal system, and wonder at what the repayment for ozzy's wrong would look like in this situation..

A short time later, I realize that I know ozzys password. Maybe it's from knowing him so long i think, or maybe its just a miracle, and maybe its the way to end the wrong that has been happening for these past few years..

A few weeks later, filled with much encouragement from old helpers like digital x, reminding me that ozzy took it all away from us in the first place, and is now messing it up and letting the new owner treat people badly. With digital x and others reminding me that its not wrong to stand up and take back what others stole from us. Then wondering again at the odd coincidence of knowing ozzys password, and realizing that simply using it would end so much wrong treatment of members, old and new. While not using it would allow all that wrong to continue... I weighed the benefit vs consequence. At the very least everyone would hate me, but ozzy might realize what it felt like to have something one cares about taken away, and this understanding might prevent ozzy doing it again in the future to someone else, and at the very most, people would once again have a safe and friendly link under their favorites menu!

err0r being my name, I decide to use the password for all the good it might bring the site and the people, but found myself flooded with a barage of nasty posts from the owner ozzy had put in, and all his helpers.. Many not realizing the situation looked at things and sympathized with ozzy and the other owner for having their site taken over by err0r..

At anyrate, since this issue kept popping up from ozzy, and then err0r, I figured it was time to clear the air and hand out all the details.

I'm not saying my choices were the best ones, but I do understand the depth of history, heart, and choices that all came before that final choice. Would I do it the same again? NO. If I did it all again, I would not spend 2 years trying to be a good friend, and patiently wait for ozzy to come around, while pouring more of my heart into the site and site members.. Instead I would consider deeply hiring out for the best hackers around, and take back the site immediatly! lol Or maybe not.

It's always easy to say what we would have done...but its not always so easy to make those choices when we are faced with everything that is going on behind them. err0r, its nobel to say you would just start over from scratch, and that is a good choice. But its another thing to realize you just don't have the time, engery or resources to start all over again.

ps, for the above example pretend that ozzy was a SHE, and that the new owner was ozzy's sweetie.

Deanne your bringing a tear to my eye.

I like Spidermans motto. "With great power comes great responsibility". Just because you have the power to use something doesn't mean it is the right time to use it, or the right circumstance. From what I saw you had the power, but gave into your need to take back what was yours, and used it. I don't condemn you at all for what you did. It wasn't right for your partner to take away what was yours at all. However, I have to say that it was wrong the way you went about it. The password was probably given to you in confidence, and just because someone breaks your confidence in them doesn't mean it is right for you to do the same.

I commend you greatly for trying to work things out with this person for as long as you did, and who knows? You probably left seeds of good faith with that. However, those seeds are probably poisoned now with distrust after using the password to regain control of your site. I hope you, and she can work things out. What you both did to each other was wrong, but in the future, before acting, please ask for several opinions, and weigh in on them. I noticed you asked a few people for their opinions, but I have to say that those opinions were wrong. Whenever you sow distrust it is always bad for everyone regardless of the outcome.

for one that stiuation would never come about

I have some standards and would never do one over on a friend like that

and i dont know why you all picking on me but you going to get if you carry on

Now I just want to know the real story. Hypothetical questions just get me more intrigued in knowing the real story.

the real story is exactly as she stated, just put her name in place of err0r, and another person's name in place of ozzy, there you go, you've got the story.

I'm not putting names to things, even though i know the story, not my place, but just so the picture is clear.

She is fighting against buzzen because she feels it's related to what happened in the past. And though she knows that what she has done is wrong, she on some level is trying to justify it, but on a greater level is trying to allow others to understand the reasoning for it all.

I'll just say, the ends DOES NOT justify the means. err0r is right in saying that there are better ways of doing things.

I've put in my two cents, which is probably worth a lot more in this thread.

LOL, back to last minute cramming for physics. 4 exams left...

ok just a few things.

1) it's a MSN group. It doesn't take a large amount of time or skill to create one.

2) if the people in the other group were being just jerks to their users then it would make it much easier on you to get them to your site.

3) if you didn't have the time to devote to something as simple as making a MSN group how could you have helped enough on the group in question

to really justify you being a manager in the first place.

4) You say you waited for your friend to realize what they did was wrong but you got tired of waiting. And you chose the path of revenge and dubbed it in

the best interest of the group.

In the end you will be judged by your actions.. What other people did to cause those actions won't matter... It's your choice as to how you live and what you do regardless of what your peers do.

I know all about this and you was in the wrong gwen and the sooner you admit that the better.

The taking of any group is wrong no matter what excuses you make

yeah just like err0r said, if you have the ingredients to make one successful website/group whatever it shouldn't be too hard for you to start again if you want it back that much.

An MSN group? Like everyone else said, if you don't have time to make a new group, then you likely wouldn't have time to actually give the group the attention it needs. I'm quitting my job here shortly to go to college. I don't expect for my job to be here when I get back. Just as you shouldn't suspect to leave your group and then come back to it years later. I'm not justifying that what they are doing is right, but none-the-less, niether were you.