I stand corrected: it is legal to use msn chat control

Who cares? lol, Just see This Thread and build your own using your choice of compiler, Even use visual basic if you like, Its official, But its illegal for them to decompile your code, Which then means unless you use an image created by them etc, They couldnt know, Remember you can modify the modules using something as simple as reshacker, idk - what do you think?

I hope you don't take my comment personally. But I think that would be worse and won't stand a chance in court. Court doesn't judge things as black and white, they'll look at the perspective of users, msn, or any other party involved. If it benefits public and doesn't harm original owner(s) than in cases like these courts may rule in the favor of the defendant if a case is filed. But riping due credits is ethically very wrong and won't stand a chance in courts at all.

Delivering the opinion of the Court, Justice Thomas played it down the middle. He explained that there is no basis for treating patent cases differently than other types of disputes in evaluating the appropriateness of equitable relief. “According to well-established principles of equity,” he wrote, “a plaintiff seeking a permanent injunction must satisfy a four-factor test before a court may grant such relief.” Specifically, a plaintiff must show:

 

- that it has suffered an irreparable injury;

- that remedies available at law, such as monetary damages, are inadequate to compensate for that injury;

- that, considering the balance of hardships between the plaintiff and defendant, a remedy in equity is warranted;

- that the public interest would not be disserved by a permanent injunction.

 

http://www.nixonpeabody.com/copyright_arti...4&PubType=N

Above case not exactly the same, but it may give some idea. Second, if software is not hosted on the network then it make things more complicated since linking normally doesn't constitute of copyright violation. Court can rule differently based on the situation but normally linking is not an issue.

Sad that topic got closed. It started getting good. But, eh, it happens.

Ah well............something must be happening..........Buzzen site is down today....

I WONDER WHY ?

am i rite inthinking you are a little bias towards buzzen chuck , because they host the project your working on?

Make it what you will but it doesn't really matter. Maybe or maybe not, it is difficult for me to access correctly. And I'm not working on the project, but I help. Logically, it doesn't make sense because supporting buzzen on this issue can make them stick more with their own system. Developers at net-bits.net were clear from the beginning, users come first and net-bits.net software comes second. If users like buzzen's own set-up then they won't push their software. Buzzen can try it, if their users like it then they can switch to it, if they don't and buzzen won't host the server then no hard feelings, buzzen has her rights and whatever comes out better for the users.

JJ never really used modified ocx or supported it, but he never bashed other scripts or bot developers over it or their users. Whatever is good for the users, is good for net-bits.net developers.

For the sake of argument lets say I'm biased towards buzzen, but then I don't go around bashing other networks on their short comings even though buzzen has a clear advantage of better infrastructure. I leave to the users to try, whatever they find good, is good enough for me even though my personal opinion may differ. I'm simply trying to state the facts.... there is difference between stating point of facts and going on and on a lengthy argument on why people shouldn't use <xyz> network or why it is bad. Except this one I didn't start topic related to buzzen, and even then I never went into to argument about very strong points of buzzen network from users perspective. It has some down points but it has apparently strong points from users perspective. And I'm not gona go into them unless I get pushed - it is up to the users to try and make their own assessment. I'm just gona try to balance disproportional, and in some cases false, views.

chuck you say maybe we should act like other forums... why would we do that. we try our best to let people have their say here. We have become alot better in this matter over the years. People say we used to be to strict.. now we aren't strict enough. We can't please anyone. I've let each side of this issue have their say have I not? The idiots that attack personally have no facts or thoughts to support either side so they should be ignored.

At the end of the day it's a very simple issue. Using the ocx, especially allowing it to be downloaded from another site outside of msn is a copyright violation. There is no law that applies here that would deflect the rights of copyright infringement. If i wrote a song when i was 2 years old it would be copyrighted throughout my life and even after for an extended amount of time. There are issues like fair use but those do not apply here. That is a fact and can not be disputed. What really makes it more interesting is that buzzen is making money on the site through the use of the ocx. When you try to chat on buzzen and click on a link to enter a room it is mandatory that the user either have or download the ocx. The choice is made for the user not by the user. There is no alternate link that is on there that is obvious. Now i know the money made from the site's donations and ads isn't directly from the ocx. But the ocx is a major reason why people come there. Very cause and effect and I doubt any judge would see the difference. I've asked my boss's brother who is a lawyer about this issue and he said buzzen would have a rough go of it in a court room if it came to that. It is still a very iffy situation and i'm sure the most that would happen is ms would send a cease and desist letter to buzzen owner(s) demanding they remove the ability to use the ocx from their site with threat of lawsuit. I very seriously doubt buzzen would test ms in court on the ocx. I would reckon sites are going to continue to use the ocx for a very long time to come regardless of what happens to buzzen. People get sued almost daily for downloading songs and movies illegally but the p2p networks continue to grow.

The other issues surrounding that in buzzen's case are more about people's personal feelings of what's right and what's wrong. They have no basis in legality. Just people's opinions on the matter. Things like the broadcast message, paying for registered rooms, etc. Some people have no problem with their actions on those subjects and some do.

Now for the most current issue about the number and quality of servers involved in the network.. Now i first want to say I have done zero research on the amount of servers they run. No one from buzzen has made an exact list of what they are running that i know of, I just find it illogical that it's being run by one server. I could be wrong as i'm not informed on the subject, but that's my personal thought on the matter.

As for their server moofing. I've had very little probs using a script connection and staying connected for long periods of time there. I idle on alot of networks for various reasons. The moofs i've had haven't been overly abundant. And most times there is a warning sent as a broadcast when a server was about to be reset. Now the webchat is another thing. I constantly got an error message and joined only as a guest on spec. That's happened more than a few times but reading their forum on that issue they say it's likely they are working on the auth system when that happens. I can understand a growing chat network are going to have these problems, so i won't jump on them for it.

I personally don't like the way they have handled a few issues that have come up, but some people feel what they did was acceptable in those instances. I just don't. I do respect the amount of work they are putting into the backside of the network sans the ocx. As for their giving out personal info on their users. I have no way of knowing if they are or not. I would hope not but i would also suggest to people to put very little personal information about themselves on any site If it's on the net it can be gotten to. remember that.

I gotta say. I am dead set against buzzen and other clones illegally using the msn chat ocx to provide webchat with, but with that said... I am impressed with the seeming sincere effort buzzen admin seems to be making at improving their site.

A few days ago if I tried to back space in the buzzen task bar it tossed me out of the room. Today that problem seems to be gone. I have also noticed today, that it did not take 12 hours for my closed room to disappear from the room listing. While it's always nice to see improvements, I'm a bit concerned that buzzen is putting more time and energy into fixing up the msn ocx system, instead of developing their own.

One thing I do appreciate about buzzen is the willingness to broadcast notices to chatters to keep them updated on what is happening on the server. For example a few days ago the message when I joined buzzen said that I would be temporarily connected as a guest and notified when the system was working properly so that I could use my nickname.

Then today at buzzen, a broadcast message came through that let people know the server was under attack. I'm sure people appreciate being updated. I know I do. Unfortunately, the broadcast message said MSN Chat, instead of buzzen.

Broadcast message from MSN Chat:

Currenty the website under attack, please wait while we are working on this to filter the attacks. Untill we fixed this the website will not respond.

Buzzen, your willingness to keep improving, and updating your chatters on your server problems is a good quality. I only wish you would pour all your time and effort into your own chat.ocx, instead of illegally using someone elses.

ps: before anyone jumps on me for chatting at buzzen, after I have so strongly spoke out against it. I simply have an information room open there, letting people know that buzzen is illegally using the msn chat ocx, and encouraging people to find a legal chat service to support.

At the end of the day it's a very simple issue. Using the ocx, especially allowing it to be downloaded from another site outside of msn is a copyright violation. There is no law that applies here that would deflect the rights of copyright infringement. If i wrote a song when i was 2 years old it would be copyrighted throughout my life and even after for an extended amount of time. There are issues like fair use but those do not apply here. That is a fact and can not be disputed.

 

What really makes it more interesting is that buzzen is making money on the site through the use of the ocx. When you try to chat on buzzen and click on a link to enter a room it is mandatory that the user either have or download the ocx. The choice is made for the user not by the user. There is no alternate link that is on there that is obvious. Now i know the money made from the site's donations and ads isn't directly from the ocx. But the ocx is a major reason why people come there. Very cause and effect and I doubt any judge would see the difference. I've asked my boss's brother who is a lawyer about this issue and he said buzzen would have a rough go of it in a court room if it came to that. It is still a very iffy situation and i'm sure the most that would happen is ms would send a cease and desist letter to buzzen owner(s) demanding they remove the ability to use the ocx from their site with threat of lawsuit. I very seriously doubt buzzen would test ms in court on the ocx.

I agree.

Speaking of context, I suppose Buzzen would be subject to Canadian Law.

Copyright isn't what you would call a minor offence. Copyright infringement is considered quite serious, whether it be (as error put it) a song, or a piece of software. About location, I’m not sure if Canada would do the trial, or if US would.

Off topic: I don't really know the details, but as far as I remember copyright expiration comes after 28 years (unless renewed) for intangible form of expression.

I thought it was the lifetime of the artist/creator, and then some time after (70 years), but my information is probably out dated on that.

There is a common belief that if someone infringes a copyright, and the

copyright owner does not sue or otherwise put a stop to the infringement,

the copyright is lost and the work goes into the public domain.

This being the case, Buzzen (or whatever chat network) would be required to state the original author still, and they could only release the software under freeware or public domain. They are not allowed to make claim (profit) off someone's work. Server's use of the ocx and saying "copyright to me", that's breach of public domain policy right there.

If anyone considers me a bad person for this, then so be it, but it is the truth.

I doubt anyone is gonna turn around and say your a bad person for standing up for something. If they do, they are major hypocrites and should have that treatment on them.

Court doesn't judge things as black and white, they'll look at the perspective of users, msn, or any other party involved.

LOL, that's a laugh. I always thought courts don't care what is presented, just how it is presented. Like seriously, most of the crap they do in courts could be skipped. It's never about the fact or truth, they don't want to hear the surrounding circumstances, all they care about is what rule has been broken, and it's normally the jackass lawyer who can present his/her case like a Christmas present that would win.

chuck you say maybe we should act like other forums... why would we do that. we try our best to let people have their say here.

Here here!

My own view of it all: I don't really care if buzzen uses the ocx (or any other server), but I won’t stand by and watch people try and say that it's right. Gwen, though her past actions have tarnished her, is right in saying that it's wrong for them to draw many users to buzzen with lies and that. The ends doesn't justify the means, and trying to say that something is right, when it's clearly wrong, well that's just as bad as committing the crime yourself. "Accessory before/after the fact" carries similar penalties than that of the original offence.

Personally I dont care if you have one or 30 servers. I'll stand up more for the small entity than the gigantic corporation. But I don;t care where or what is manipulating and lying to people to gain their money, I will ALWAYS stand up and notify people of these things. I do it on the street when someone is treating another with disrespect, I do it on the city bus when the same thing happens. I do it against the government who uses lies to get more of our money and to send our kids off to war and I will do it here as well.

I don't care that they use only one server, I do care that they lie to their chatters. I do care that they mistreat private information. I personally do not think the admin there have the capability or maturity to handle this sensitive information responsibly. I'm nothing special. I'm just a human like you and everyone else in this world and I care about you and everyone else. I care about your safety as if it were my own. This is why I notify you and everyone about these things. I'm not afraid to sacrifice myself to save the greater whole. Now I have to give it all up. I have said my peice. It is up to others to decide how they want to use that information. That is all I can do.

never be afraid to express how you feel on a subject... i think too often good people stand by and do nothing. Anytime you decide to provide a service to the public you must accept and be prepared for the public to question what you do. Whether it's a hobby site like tg or a starting business such as buzzen. If you want the public to be involved you have to respect that the public is going to want to ask and know certain things. There are certain expectations involved that comes with going public with any service. Best policy is just be up front and honestly answer questions that arise. No one likes to get answers such as MSN provided. That old standby "we are aware of the problem and are looking into it" gets really old. Sooner or later you want an answer to your question.

never be afraid to express how you feel on a subject... i think too often good people stand by and do nothing. Anytime you decide to provide a service to the public you must accept and be prepared for the public to question what you do. Whether it's a hobby site like tg or a starting business such as buzzen. If you want the public to be involved you have to respect that the public is going to want to ask and know certain things. There are certain expectations involved that comes with going public with any service. Best policy is just be up front and honestly answer questions that arise. No one likes to get answers such as MSN provided. That old standby "we are aware of the problem and are looking into it" gets really old. Sooner or later you want an answer to your question.

so what's happening To buzzen is some one doing something to make a point that it's wrong?

it's no secret buzzen has about as many people that don't like them as do. It's the same with most any site with the slightest popularity. Once that happens the chances of getting attacked increase. sad but so very true.

Is there something that can be in between so every one happy? It is best way to give controll and support to your own room with out having to change way you do things, Microsolft did good things with it, that made it easer for everyone, Tell they disided to make a Pay Chat, That to me was sadest day

i agree i think msn chat failed more to do with a poor economic plan. I think the way they treated their userbase was pretty shitty. But when you become a corporation I guess you are no longer expected to act human. I don't mean the msn chat staff. I think the majority of them did the best they could with what they had. I'm talking about the decision makers. They have every right in the world to make money and cut their loses but you could at least treat your users with some sense of loyality.

it's past time to let msn chat die.. it's time for something new. i had a really good time on MSN.. met alot of kewl people a few unkewl ones. but all in all MSN chat was a positive thing in my life. yeah yeah it's just a chat but it led to alot more to me. anyways for all the things i disliked about msn ( mostly business related ) i had a good time.. Alot of people are still holding on to it through the ocx but it won't last.. MSN Chat is over and as soon as everyone comes to grip with that the better. I hated to see it go too but it did. DONE IS DONE

Okay who hasnt seen the video version of rip msn?

Buzzen, your willingness to keep improving, and updating your chatters on your server problems is a good quality. I only wish you would pour all your time and effort into your own chat.ocx, instead of illegally using someone elses.

What about if they have a team to work on the new ocx and another team working on fixing the current bugs ?

(Yeah, it's a bit )

What about IF they do? I think that's what Deanne is saying. What about it?

it's past time to let msn chat die.. it's time for something new. i had a really good time on MSN.. met alot of kewl people a few unkewl ones. but all in all MSN chat was a positive thing in my life. yeah yeah it's just a chat but it led to alot more to me. anyways for all the things i disliked about msn ( mostly business related ) i had a good time.. Alot of people are still holding on to it through the ocx but it won't last.. MSN Chat is over and as soon as everyone comes to grip with that the better. I hated to see it go too but it did. DONE IS DONE

Spoken like a real trooper .. msn chatrooms longer exist .. ok we have clones .. but will they ever be the same as MSN .. in my eyes NO .. you can copy and paste something all day long sometimes it looks good and other times it looks shit .. Iv sed it from the start and Im not here on this forum or any other forum to start another buzzen / sparkpea OCX debate .. some where along the line MSN will take away wot belongs to them .. so to buzzen and sparkpea .. get ur fingers out and do something of ur own