Do American citizens have to pay income tax?

This was an interesting debate, with far reaching and potentially very negative effects for society as a whole. I don't think it is too much to ask Jay to explain what his motives are, and what type of society he hopes to create by his actions and encouragement of people to rebel against the laws that make our society a decent place to live.

This topic was originally started on the Buzzen forum by Buzzen Admin_Jay, under the category of Debate. I took time to post my comments to the debate there, but my comments were removed, not once, but three times without any reason provided for why, and I was banned(again).

The third time I posted comments there, I stated that if Jay refused to discuss the issue on the buzzen forum, and continued to remove my comments, that we could carry on discussions on another forum. I had my post removed the third time, with no reason provided as to why, and I was banned. Thus I have moved the discussion here, in hopes that Jay will answer my questions here.

btw, the buzzen debate is located at this link, for those who want to read through all of the comments: Original Debate Link

Below are quotes of Jays first and last posting and some in between, and also my three posts, which were removed.

Posted by Buzzen Admin Jay

 

This issue is one I think ALL Americans should learn about.

 

I am curious to find out just how many of you know you DON'T have to pay personal income tax.

 

Post what you believe in this poll and then tell us why.

 

************

* READ THIS *

************

 

NO UNITED STATES CITIZEN HAS TO PAY PERSONAL INCOME TAX.

 

I WILL DEBATE ANYONE REGARDING THIS THREAD AND CHALLENGE YOU TO PROVE ME WRONG!

 

THE FIRST PERSON TO PROVE ME WRONG WILL RECEIVE $250 USD.

 

****

****

I define "Personal Income Tax" as a tarrif or tax deducted from any money that is paid to you for labour or another service you may provide.

_________________

"He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose." -Jim Elliot

Posted by Buzzen Admin Jay

Would you be so kind as to show me the law they would be enforcing

 

Now on a seperate note, I have noticed the majority thinks this money is spent on making america a better place.

 

Truth is, not even 1 penny of your income tax is used for any public betterment at all.

Actually no person has to pay regardless of how much they make, the only LEGAL income tax in the United States is for corporations not citizens.

 

I define "Personal Income Tax" as a tarrif or tax deducted from any money that is paid to you for labour or any other service you may provide.

 

This thread is not a trick question Troy.

 

Not 1 penny of the income tax goes back to the united states government or any services it provides for the people.

 

Posted by Buzzen Admin Yahoo

i think i will move to america lol

Posted by Buzzen Admin Jay

lol

Posted by Buzzen Admin Jay

 

I understand your point and how you could confuse it. But all you are proving is that the US Government in coersion with the Federal Reserve has duped the American people for decades and this tyranical rampage has victimized millions of Americans. No Law is Legal that is not approved by congress. So any law that outsteps its bounds are required by law to be ignored. The Internal Revenue Code has NO Law, authority or approval from congress to require you to pay federal income tax.

 

I think once you read my last post and watch the video you will understand much better how wrong you are.

 

Like I said, dont take my word for it, DO THE RESEARCH.

 

The Federal Reserve is in no way connected with the US government. It is a PRIVATELY OWNED BANK.

 

The United States Government works for the Federal Reserve. The federal Reserve reports to and takes orders from its owners. So in reality the group who owns the federal Reserve controls the US Government.

_________________

"He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose." -Jim Elliot

 

These are my three comments:

Posted by Gwen

 

Jay, I'm wondering what type of society you hope to create? One that exploits every little pin hole it finds, for personal benefit and gain? A society in which everyone refuses to pay income tax? A society where we don't have to respect the rights of other peoples creations, and copyrights?

 

Reading through this I can't help but notice how closely your logic on this issue, follows the same path as your defense of using someone elses copyrighted chat control without permission.

 

It's sad Jay, and it's twisted.

 

**Edit**

And for those who like to pat themselves on the back because they are small enough to squeek through a pinhole in legal policy--how long do you think it will take the legal system to plug that hole, once you've made it known by exploiting it?

 

Our legal system is dynamic, and it continues to change in order to meet the needs of a our world. If you can fight the system and sucessfully prove your right NOT to pay taxes, or your right to USE someone elses copyrighted software without permission--how long do you think it will take before their are laws created that prevent you from exercising these new found 'rights' that end up harming other people, and society in general?

 

In the end, what is the point? To prove you are smarter than everyone else? For the sake of a make new laws work project? For personal and selfish gain?

This was my 2nd post:

Posted by Gwen

 

Who removed my post and for what reason?

 

Please restore my comments.

 

**Edit**

Luckily I'm aware of how unfairly this discussion forum is censored, and I saved my own comments, which had been removed. Please explain to me what reasons you had for removing my questions and comments, which are re-posted below:

 

btw Jay, you are using one of the same quotes I have on my email signature "He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose." -Jim Elliot

 

You might think you can keep side stepping and evading the law, but it's not yours to keep --only a fool would try. Give up what you cannot keep,(the benefits of walking on the wrong side of the law) Jay, to gain what you cannot lose (Integrity, honesty, good will).

 

--Jay I think you are too smart to waste your time on gimmicks and trying to squeeze through loop holes in the law. Just do the right thing.

That was removed also so I reposted a third time, and was banned:

Posted by Gwen

 

Is this the type of society you hope to create, Jay? One where people are not even able to voice an opinion, or ask questions of their high and mighty site administrators??

 

My comments were removed for the 2nd time. If they are removed again I will simply move them to another forum, and we can discuss them there.

Again, this was an interesting debate, with far reaching and potentially very negative effects for society as a whole. I don't think it is too much to ask Jay to explain what his motives are, and what type of society he hopes to create by his actions and encouragement of people to rebel against the laws that make our society a decent place to live.

yeah i've seen people that think that exact same thing over and over. The fact is that if the person disputed it, it would go to court and there isn't a court in the U.S.A that would allow an individual to not pay income taxes. There have been many people who have tried and they all fail. They have a zero percent success rate.

see here for a little more clarity

i imagine this is coming from someone like ed brown. While many of the things he says is true the bottom line is that a court would have to ultimately decide in an individuals case. That's where your problem lays. You aren't going to get by the courts with that.

another interesting site

as for why it was deleted i would imagine it was because you are just using a current topic to rehash an old one. But that's just my guess.

If the topic was puppies i would imagine you would write how could a so called puppy lover use a chat control you didn't own.. i guess you steal ppl's puppies too. Hey everyone Buzzen supports puppy thieves.

Maybe a little over the top but you get my drift.. i get where you are coming from gwen i really do but i think you are just beating a dead horse now.

Well it doesn't help you made a personal attack on Jay... I think. That's probably why they got removed.

Other than that, I don't care about the topic of discussion rofl. It's boring stuff *shrug*

Nice site err0r. With all due respect, the issue is that it is a pattern of behaviour that concerns me. If you look at each event alone, they don't mean much, but as you begin to notice the similar pattern of lawlessness it makes more sense. Jay seems to seek to rebel against the laws of society, and encourage others to do so also. I believe it is only fair to require him to provide us with information as to what type of society he is hoping to create, and for what motive.

It is not just a single matter of encouraging people to consider evading paying their taxes...it is also a matter of using copyrighted material without permission and trying to convince people it is LEGAL. These two items combined show that it is not an issue of poor judgement, but rather it is a personality pattern, which has an overall negative effect on society.

The point is, anyone who thinks its LEGAL NOT to pay taxes, is of course going to think its LEGAL TO USE SOMEONE's copyrighted material without permission. They are both related and they both come from the same source: faulty reasoning.

**Edit**

btw Josh I don't think I attacked Jay. I attacked his logic, and questioned what type of society he hopes to create by convincing people that it is right and legal to ignore copyrights and tax laws.

I think if my annual income is below a certain amount I dont have to pay federal income tax. I live in Washington state and we do not have a state income tax. I think I would still need to pay Social Security tax.

But really, I have a feeling Jay is starting to get a hint of what his latest venture demands and since his moeny is probably all wasted on candy, video games and "Geek Squad" calls he is probably a little worried and like any white trash person, would rather complain about it.

Ok that was a little harsh but let me ask you this. Do you drive on the roads? Do you use electricity? You are canadian, you get public health care, where does that money come from? Do you live in a free and safe country? If you answer yes to any of these then pay your damn dues just like everyone else.

I'm just giving everyone fair warning ...

I'm going to be monitoring this topic closely, as I'm sure other administrators on this site will be aswell. If anyone begins a personal attack on anyone, or wherever they chat, this will be closed. We can carry a decent debate without having to resort to name calling, or mud flinging. It's been demonstrated before. We're all decent civiliized human beings that have brains, so, lets use them in this topic.

*replies real quickly before X closes this again*

I'm gullible. I actually believe that the Government of the united states had those planes hit the WTC because a youtube video told me so.

Bad example...but ppl ARE gullible. What I dun want to see a year from now is a post in Buzzen (or anywhere ) saying ' I took your admin's advice and didn't pay my taxes...I'm now posting this from a net cafe in Tripoli where I've been hiding from the evil tax men for the last 5 months'.

I'm just giving everyone fair warning ...

I'm going to be monitoring this topic closely, as I'm sure other administrators on this site will be aswell. If anyone begins a personal attack on anyone, or wherever they chat, this will be closed. We can carry a decent debate without having to resort to name calling, or mud flinging. It's been demonstrated before. We're all decent civiliized human beings that have brains, so, lets use them in this topic.

thats fair X

*Gwen waits for Jay to reply to her question.

Again, I don't think it is too much to ask from Jay, to explain what his motives are, and what type of society he hopes to create by his actions and encouragement of people to rebel against the laws that make our society a decent place to live.

Jay, I'm wondering what type of society you hope to create? One that exploits every little pin hole it finds, for personal benefit and gain? A society in which everyone refuses to pay income tax? A society where we don't have to respect the rights of other peoples creations, and copyrights?

If the topic was puppies i would imagine you would write how could a so called puppy lover use a chat control you didn't own.. i guess you steal ppl's puppies too. Hey everyone Buzzen supports puppy thieves.

Sorry, I just found that really funny, and I didnt read it before.

Sorry, I just found that really funny, and I didnt read it before.

ha :/ puppies isn't even related to this.

But ignoring income tax laws and ignoring copyright laws are closely related concepts. Trying to persuade people it is LEGAL to with-hold their income taxe, and trying to persuade people it is LEGAL to use someone elses copyrighted material without permission, are similar--and both stemming from faulty reasoning.

Well it seems to be very difficult for someone to start a topic on his own forum about tax,

because we just simply move the topic to another forum and will go off topic again.

There are many other topics about the issue you still want to dicuss, be honest.... you don't really want to talk about tax, do you deanne?

To get On topic again

In the Netherlands we pay tax also income tax and have to pay social security tax and more and we have a law for it

and its an obligation.

I say why go to a site you dont like because its a clone site and then complain about being banned your replies being deleted, firstly if I disliked a site for any reason I would not return to that site.. Simply stay away from it or put up with the fact that your views and comments are not wanted on that site. And finding any opportunity to bark at coyright infringement clearly shows that some people are affected or feel threatened from such cloned sites...

Gwen you got banned your replies were deleted big deal dont you think its up to the admin to do as they want like on here if things go out of hand topics are locked thats the right of an admin. You have no right to air your feelings on a site you dont like hint hint take the hint

You have no right to air your feelings on a site you dont like

You have every right to air your feelings in a debate. It's why the debate is there. If you start screening posts ( whereas it's an ocx debate or a tax one) in a debate just don't bother starting one.

Sure you are right, thats why we have forums to have your say in things.

But I think when you start a topic, don't use that topic for another subject because you still can't let go.

A subject with all the important info about the ocx from one person on serveral forums.

At first when I read that subject I appereciated that info, also because it was written with knowlegde and the info was objective, but to be honest.....after reading more then 100 posts from this person I noticed that there was more then feeling obligated to inform the people about the oxc. It isnt really objective anymore, cloneservers and their admins were added to posts with names, and at the same time you try to advertise another chatserver that doesnt use the ocx and also try to say that it isnt an personal attack, well if it isnt..... then leave the names out of your posts.

Okay Im aware that Im off topic too

No I don't actually want to talk about the LEGALITIES involved in either the tax evasion or copyright issues. I want to talk about what EFFECT tax evasion and ignoring copyrights might have on society. If we all jump on side with Jay and stop paying income tax, and ingore everyones copyright--will our world be a better place to live, or worse? That is what I want to talk about.

To me this goes deeper than a tax debate or copyright debate. Yes I have a huge issue with clones using copyrighted software without permission. Everyone knows that. I also have a huge issue with people who evade income taxes.

If I ONLY wanted to discuss the ocx issue with Jay AGAIN, I would open a topic on that.

But to me the issue goes much deeper than all of that--it boils down to what type of society are people who ignore copyright laws and evade income tax trying to create?

We have laws in our society to protect our us and ensure we have freedom to enjoy life to the fullest. Encouraging people to blatantly disregard those laws has a negative effect on our society.

Do people think the world would be a better place if no one paid taxes, and if we all utterly ignored the copyrights of others? Mayb we should jump on Jays bandwagon and disregard roadway laws, and drive on whatever side of the street we want, and ignore stop lights and red lights also?

What is Jays REASON and what is his MOTIVE when he tries to convince people it is LEGAL to use that ocx without permission? What is Jays REASON and MOTIVE for trying to convince people it is LEGAL to evade income taxes? What type of society does he hope to create by convincing people to ignore copyrights and evade income taxes?

My question to Jay goes deeper than the tax issue or the copyright issue. I want to know what type of society he hopes to create, by persuading people it is LEGAL to use someone elses copyrighted software without permission, and by persuading people it is LEGAL to evade paying income taxes.

Jay wanted to debate the LEGALITY of these things, and in both cases insisted that people SHOW him LAWS that refute his faulty logic, and when they did, he brought up information on WHY those laws aren't valid. It's all faulty logic, and I don't want to leave this topic at that--it's not just a matter of proving its LEGAL or NOT LEGAL--its about what kind of effect our actions and choices have on society. So that is why I asked what type of society he hopes to create by encouraging people to ignore copyrights, and evade income taxes.

**Edit**

Grinning male, I have every right to air my concerns about the fact that a site admin is actually trying to persuade people it is legal to evade paying income taxes. I also have every right to air my concerns about the fact that the same site admin has actively been tryign to persuade people that it is legal to ignore copyrights. I also have every right to ask that site admin, by name, to explain the what his reasons and motives are for encouraging people to ignore copyrights and evade taxes.

If people do not want to be held accountable to their words and actions, then it's better for them to keep silent. Jay has not been silent. Further he is in a leadership role, being admin at a chat site--therefore he should expect people to hold him responsible and accountable for what he encourages people to believe, and reqest that he give a full account of why he is encourages it.

I have nothing to add to this topic...maybe cuz I don't care. I care more about other things like the fact that U.S. Government has its hand in on too many things. Just what is freedom?

Somewhat reminds me of a store hold up/robbery. I suppose it works. The idea of you do it now or we will shoot.

Reminds me of the bully kid in the sand box, "You do it now or I will punch you in the face, and fifty other punks will do the same cuz your small in numbers.

" Here is what the world thinks of the US governments supposed freedoms.

• Freedom to watch people in other countries go jobless.
• Freedom to kill industy in other countries, just because they do the job better.
• Freedom to watch peoples dreams in other countries go down the tubes.
• Freedom to exert power over other nations.
• Freedom to control every facit of peoples lives, even if its not within your own nation.

And Gwen, maybe your mode of attack is getting old. Perhaps you should convince the slave kid sysops/guides that they will never see anything in return for the cheques/checks being cashed. Admin work is not as hard as sysop or guide, but admin gets the cash....does this make sense? I say these sysops/guides need to abandon the ship and move onto bigger and better things. Too much talent is being wasted on someone else, with absolutely no return.

To me this goes deeper than a tax debate or copyright debate. Yes I have a huge issue with clones using copyrighted software without permission. Everyone knows that. I also have a huge issue with people who evade income taxes.

 

We have laws in our society to protect our us and ensure we have freedom to enjoy life to the fullest. Encouraging people to blatantly disregard those laws has a negative effect on our society.

 

My question to Jay goes deeper than the tax issue or the copyright issue. I want to know what type of society he hopes to create, by persuading people it is LEGAL to use someone elses copyrighted software without permission, and by persuading people it is LEGAL to evade paying income taxes.

 

So that is why I asked what type of society he hopes to create by encouraging people to ignore copyrights, and evade income taxes.

Yes Im aware that this issue goes much deeper for you then an ocx or tax debate.

You want to know what type of society he hopes to create?

I think that he doesnt want to create anything with the tax poll, he only

want answers, but maybe I have read it wrong and have to read it from your point of view, but if I do that, think he can never ask a question or search for answers or start a poll again.

Btw this type of society that you have an issue with is not to blame to one person only.

If you want to blame someone, lets just blame everyone who is using for example Limewire to download music from the internet, using software like nero, photoshop, fireworks and search for the key to use that software.

You will be surprised how many people on the internet are using illegal software.

And I will be surprised if there is anyone out here on this forum to say honestly, "yeah I do ripp movies" or "yeah I have Nero".

Oh and speaking about tax, in the Netherlands we have to pay income tax and can goes up to 52 % of your

salary. Unfortunately we have to pay 52 %.

And yes I have a legal xp pro

And yes I do burn movies and music albums

And yes I still have to pay and pay and pay and pay and also more and more and more.

SO Im a bad person now..... whos next?

I have two questions Joan.

#1 Why are you speaking for Jay?

#2 Why are you so angry?

Shag I dont understand your anti american statements...

With all due respect of course:

We watch people in other countries go jobless? Tell me one country that cares more about other countries citizens than its own? Also, we send most of our jobs to other countries. As you have stated in your next point ...

Freedom to kill industy in other countries, just because they do the job better.

2 points, again, we send our jobs over seas. How would that kil industry in a country if we give you millions of jobs? (this is frowned upon by most americans. Well Id hope most, me at least, Id like to see us keep our jobs here.)

I think your own quote sums up the anti-american statements Shag.

"What makes it so hard is not that you had it bad, but that you're that pissed that so many others had it good."

Id also like to point out that this is an American movie, written, directed, produced and acted by Americans. Like it or leave it. Dont love it and then complain about it.

About Gwen, I think people need to stop worrying about the person making the complaints or accusations and look at the accusations. Tackle those if it pisses you off so much.

Yes Im aware that this issue goes much deeper for you then an ocx or tax debate.

 

You want to know what type of society he hopes to create?

I think that he doesnt want to create anything with the tax poll, he only

want answers, but maybe I have read it wrong and have to read it from your point of view, but if I do that, think he can never ask a question or search for answers or start a poll again.

 

Btw this type of society that you have an issue with is not to blame to one person only.

If you want to blame someone, lets just blame everyone who is using for example Limewire to download music from the internet, using software like nero, photoshop, fireworks and search for the key to use that software.

 

Joan he was doing MORE than starting a poll or asking questions. Jay was accusing America of illegally robbing the people of their hard earned money, and failing to do anything beneficial with the tax money. Jay was actively encouraging people to view paying income tax as an ILLEGAL and USELESS activity.

In the past Jay has actively tried to convince people that it is LEGAL to ignore copyrights. These two things combined show a PATTERN of behavior that NEGATIVELY affects our society! Further, the PATTERN of lawlessness is increasing from trying to convince people that it is LEGAL to ignore copyrights, to trying to convince people that it is LEGAL to evade income taxes! If this pattern of lawlessness continues, what is next??

When someone is actively trying to change the views and opinions of others in such a negative way, as to PERSUADE them that it is LEGAL to evade paying income taxes and ignore copyrights, I think we are RESPONSIBLE to call them on their actions, and requst that they give an account of their motives and reasons, and to explain what type of society they hope to create by persuading people to disregard taxes and copyrights.

And, no matter how you look at it--downloading movies, music without paying, or using someone elses copyrighted material without permission ROBS people of the income and rights they HOLD on that material. Ultimately the more people who accept these actions as "OK", the further downhill our society slides.

How many of us would enjoy giving away your work for free, or having people ignore our copyrights on materials? And what type of society are we hopeing to create, when we encourage people to think that it is LEGAL and thus OK to ignore copyrights, download movies and music without paying for it, and evade paying income taxes???

Basically alot of people don't looking at the effect their actions or decisions have on others, or on our society as a whole---most people who advocate that it is LEGAL to evade taxes, or that it is LEGAL to ignore copyrights, or that it is LEGAL to download music and videos without paying for them are NOT looking past their own nose--they are being selfish, and putting the benefit for themselves, above the rights of other people, and the welfare of our society as a whole.